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Exclusives : Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes Worst of Church
Posted by David Virtue on 2009/4/7 11:10:00 (6636 reads)

Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes Worst of Post-Modern Church
Her statements are the genocide of the vulnerable and murder, say orthodox bishops

News Analysis

By David W. Virtue
www.virtueonline.org
4/6/2009

Dr. Katherine RagsdaleThe announcement that the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, MA, has chosen a lesbian, pro-abortion president to lead the seminary has sent shock waves around the Anglican Communion. The appointment of Katherine Hancock Ragsdale highlights a week that also saw TEC bishop-elect Kevin Thew Forrester replace a reading from the New Testament with a reading from the Quran at St. Paul's Marquette, Michigan.

One wonders what Episcopal boundaries and barriers have yet to be crossed that the dying embers of historic Christianity could possibly fan into life. That the Diocese of Massachusetts has a functioning transgendered priest complete with a sex change operation (he appeared at Lambeth 2008) mocks not only marriage, but any notion of what normalcy in sexual matters might mean in The Episcopal Church. Consider, too, that 19 of the 41 resolutions to be presented at GC2009 have to do with normalizing same-sex unions, proposing same sex rites and deep-sixing a resolution - B033 - that restrains further homosexual ordinations into the priesthood. They mock The Episcopal Church as a Christian denomination.

It is abortion, however, that hits the nerve endings of orthodox Episcopalians as it touches on the very issue of life and death itself. The shrill cry of Ms. Ragsdale that "abortion is a blessing" sends true believers into shock and is viewed as particularly heinous, not only for the church, but for the future of the human race.

It is hard to imagine even the most hard-boiled pro-choice person advocating the tearing of life from a human body for no other reason than unmitigated selfishness. For them, endangerment of the mother's life, the fetus malformed, and extreme poverty et al might be reasons to abort. For Ragsdale there was no reason, just the unalloyed notion that abortion is not only a right, but a BLESSING. Here is what she said in a sermon recently:

Let me hear you say it:

Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.
Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.
Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.

Her outrageous statements hit a nerve with a number of Anglican leaders.

Abortion, except in the case where it is indirect and unintended, due to an operation seeking to save the life of the mother, is the unjust taking of an innocent life, The Rt. Rev. Dr. John Rodgers, former Dean of Trinity School for Ministry, told VOL. "It is therefore murder, which is forbidden to Christians by the will and express law of the Lord."

Then he tore into Ragsdale: "Feminists such as Dean Ragsdale seem to believe, should the mother for some reason not be pleased with this human life growing in her body, that she has the right to kill the child. However the value of that human life is not grounded in the estimation of the mother but in the purpose and will of God, who called the child into being. Made in His image, the child is precious and is to be protected, nurtured, and raised in the nurture and fear of the Lord. We are to love our neighbors and even our enemies and with the exception of police protection and just warfare we are to seek to do them good and not kill them, much less murder the innocent in the womb.

"The same divine guidance and logic applies to euthanasia. It too is forbidden. The two are linked together in practice as the old saying goes, "The society that gives the mother the right to kill her children will one day give the child the right to kill her mother." Some states in the USA have already brought that to pass. I understand that Holland is far advanced in that practice.

"One can't help but ask how Jesus maxim, "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" fits if one puts oneself in the place of the "other" i.e. the innocent baby waiting to be born. Surely there are other ways to cope with an unwanted pregnancy, given the shortage of children being offered for adoption. God will surely provide a way."

The President and CEO of The American Anglican Council, CANA bishop David C. Anderson told VOL that the leadership of the Episcopal Church (TEC) continues their culture of death by the appointment of The Rev. Dr. Katherine Ragsdale as the sixth and newest president of the Episcopal Divinity School in Cambridge, Massachusetts.

"Her public statements that 'abortion is a blessing' are the full equivalent of saying that genocide is a good thing, for her stand supports the genocide of the most vulnerable. Her statements and her life witness in this regard stand in opposition to the American Anglican Council¹s statement of faith, which says, 'All human life is a sacred gift from God and is to be protected and defended from conception to natural death.'

"Ragsdale and those who appointed her want to spread their false gospel and pro-abortion agenda to the future priests and bishops of the Episcopal Church. Although her selection seems to be yet another segment in TEC's juggernaut toward self destruction, the AAC is gratified to see that some Episcopal dioceses have rejected TEC's affiliation with the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC) and our prayer is that more TEC dioceses will live into their baptismal covenant to 'respect the dignity of every human being,' including the pre-born. We hope that those dioceses which oppose the genocide of the pre-born would de-list the Episcopal Divinity School from their qualified list, if they haven¹t already done so for other doctrinal reasons."

Several Episcopal seminary presidents, approached by VOL, either refused to return e-mail requests for their stand or said flatly that they would "pass" on saying anything about a fellow seminary president.

Other thoughtful Episcopal leaders did weigh in saying that Ragsdale's appointment as President and Dean of Episcopal Divinity School (EDS), which still styles itself as an Episcopal Seminary, is little more than an ode to Molech worship. "I haven't the words to respond to this vile, odious (appointment)...well, it speaks for itself. It is quite true that EDS has long been a bastion of leftism rather than a school for training recognizably Christian clerics and this is likely an indication of its undoubted decline into official fever-swamp status. Yet, there are still Episcopalian bishops who send would-be ordinands there and churches who hire those trained by the people who hired this woman and now accept her intellectual, moral, and spiritual leadership."

In a sermon titled "Our Work is Not Done", Ragsdale even went as far as to rip the consciences of doctors and pharmacists who try to opt out of providing medical care, stating "our work is not done."

"And when a woman becomes pregnant within a loving, supportive, respectful relationship; has every option open to her; decides she does not wish to bear a child; and has access to a safe, affordable abortion - there is not a tragedy in sight -- only blessing. The ability to enjoy God's good gift of sexuality without compromising one's education, life's work, or ability to put to use God's gifts and call is simply blessing."

Ragsdale is living testimony to the late Pope John Paul II and Pope Benedict XVI's statements that we live in a culture of death in our contemporary political discourse in many countries, including the United States.

Ragsdale even went as far to say that doctors who are not prepared to provide the full range of reproductive health care (or prescriptions) to any woman who needs them shouldn't go into obstetrics and gynecology, or internal or emergency medicine, or pharmacology. Choose another field. She cried.

Ragsdale let her lesbian tendencies shine through when she said that any argument that puts men alone at the center - for good or for bad --– on any discussion of women's reproductive health ends up being all about men. This is not feminism. Nor, for that matter, is it Christian, or reflective of any God I recognize.

Clearly her "god" is more akin to the god of John Shelby Spong and V. Gene Robinson, both of whom support pro-choice positions.

The Episcopal Church, as a collective body, has also taken a decidedly pro-abortion stand, refusing to allow any opposition, at the personal or diocesan level, against its collective will.

Recently, the Bishop of Central Florida, The Rt. Rev. John W. Howe got a not so polite letter from a member of the national Executive Council urging the diocesan council of Central Florida to nullify a resolution disassociating from the abortion rights organization known as the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice (RCRC).

The Central Florida board had written a letter opposing the church's official pro-abortion stand, which offended the national church's political sensitivities on the subject. John Vanderstar, of Washington, D.C., got into a huff and said that while he understood that Episcopalians hold varying political positions on the morality, legality and necessity of abortion, and that "this is a sensitive subject for many people, the [Central Florida] board's harsh language with regard to RCRC is neither fair nor accurate. Moreover, the action of the council was squarely supported by positions adopted by General Convention that date back some 40 years."

Bishop Howe wrote back to Vanderstar, saying he fully supported his diocese's resolution to disassociate from the RCRC. "I am, frankly, deeply embarrassed that the Executive Council adopted this affiliation in the first place," said Howe. Howe is a past president and chairman of the board of the organization now known as Anglicans for Life.

Georgette Forney, President of Anglicans for Life and Co-founder of Silent No More Awareness Campaign, a global ministry affirming the sanctity of life, said she was "shocked" when she learned that Rev. Ragsdale actually said 'Abortion is a blessing.'

"Based on my personal experience as well as having heard and read thousands of testimonies of women from the Silent No More Awareness Campaign, who had abortions, blessing is never a word used to describe either the procedure or the aftereffects. Regret, nightmare, painful, and numbing are more applicable words to be associated with abortion. Frankly, Ms. Ragsdale's comment reveals a deep level of cold-heartedness."

"Ms. Ragsdale's enthusiasm for abortion is completely out of line from a pastoral and biblical perspective and makes me question whether there will be a litmus test for students seeking to enter EDS. Support the killing of unborn babies if you want to attend our seminary may become the new admissions slogan. Even most liberal politicians have adopted a more middle of the road approach to abortion by focusing on reducing the number of abortions performed each year (approximately 1.2 in 2007 in the US)." www.AnglicansforLife.org

The best-known Christian martyr of the Nazi era was Pastor Dietrich Bonhoeffer. Before he was hanged, he wrote in his prison cell: "The great masquerade of evil has played havoc with all our ethical concepts. For evil to disguise as light, charity, historical necessity or social justice is quite bewildering to anyone brought up on our traditional ethics, while for the Christian who bases his life on the Bible it merely confirms the fundamental wickedness of evil."

END

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Poster Thread
Cennydd
Posted: 2009/4/7 20:50  Updated: 2009/4/7 20:53
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 8133
 Re: Gay, Pro- Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolize...
Let's see.....I think I'll dig around in my shop and see if I can find my hammer and nails.

Oh, yeah, here they are!

Now to get to that coffin in the corner..............

Cennydd
patulous
Posted: 2009/4/7 22:12  Updated: 2009/4/7 22:12
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/5/18
From:
Posts: 1822
 Re: Gay, Pro- Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolize...
Quote: "Clearly her "god" is more akin to the god of John Shelby Spong and V. Gene Robinson, both of whom support pro-choice positions."

Surely, you meant to add, Schori, Williams, Hiltz, Hitler, and Mussolini, just to add a few that had the same idealogy(the integrated assertions, theories and aims that constitute a sociopolitical program).
dturk
Posted: 2009/4/7 23:39  Updated: 2009/4/7 23:42
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From:
Posts: 481
 Re: Gay, Pro- Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolize...
The very name "Episcopal Divinity School" is a complete fraud. There is nothing "Episcopal" about it. "Divinity" is not taught and it isn't much of a school. This bad imitation of Hogwarts is nothing more than a Satanic brainwashing facility.

Like the "school" that she now heads, Ragsdale is a disgusting joke, a cross between Madame Blavatsky and a transgendered version of Anton Levay, dressed as a priestess.

This person and her warped ilk seek nothing other that to destroy everything that Christianity stands for. If Gtmo guards dissed the Quran like she disses what is in the Bible, they would be court-martialed.
gmcdermith
Posted: 2009/4/8 0:32  Updated: 2009/4/8 0:32
Quite a regular
Joined: 2008/2/29
From: Colorado
Posts: 66
 Re: Gay, Pro- Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolize...
I find it extremely unfortunate that this woman seems to think education, life work, and ability are more important then life. The points made about abortion in this article are very valid and ones I wish more people would think about when discussing this topic. I think people get too side tracked by the woman in question and forget the child. God grant us strength to fight against this horrid culture of death.

Off to join Anglicans for Life.
jfmckenna
Posted: 2009/4/8 1:29  Updated: 2009/4/8 1:29
Home away from home
Joined: 2006/2/4
From:
Posts: 1051
 Re: Gay, Pro- Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolize...
Eventually people like this will look like the religious thinkers who found a rationale for slavery. Fifty million people have had their bodies broken and dumped into buckets at the abortion mills and millions of gays have died from AIDS and other diseases that would have avoided acting out were it not for religious leaders encouraging them to do so. This Ragsdale assumes she escapes culpability by being so "progressive."
Fisherman
Posted: 2009/4/8 11:19  Updated: 2009/4/8 11:19
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Joined: 2006/8/25
From: Dallas - Province of the Southern Cone, DoFW
Posts: 676
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
EDS has chosen a guiding light and beacon of apostasy. EDS and Ragsdale make a good pairing. I pity anyone who goes there expecting a Christian education based upon Biblical teaching and standards of morality.
JamesH
Posted: 2009/4/8 13:57  Updated: 2009/4/8 13:57
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2004/5/13
From: Kenmore, NY
Posts: 39
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
TEC is a freak show. The End.
mathman
Posted: 2009/4/8 16:56  Updated: 2009/4/8 16:56
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/5/26
From: Rockville, MD
Posts: 1256
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Let me see . . .
Was it Cicero? I no longer recall.
"As for the rest, Carthage must be destroyed."
Carthago delenda est.
And one of the cultural characteristics of Carthage was infant sacrifice. And this was the immoral Romans!
Back in the fourth Century the theologians had heated disputes about the hypostatic union.
Today we have a new dispute. It seems that Tec is an apostate union.
Truth does not mix with error. Light does not combine with darkness. Truth does not combine with lies.
My thesaurus does not plumb the depths necessary to condemn this perversion. It would seem that the so-called Episcopal Divinity School has chosen darkness rather than light, error rather than truth, and Moloch rather than God.
It is well to publicize this choice as widely as possible. From now on, any EDS graduate should be regarded as heretical and apostate, as was done many centuries ago to the followers of other perverse apostates.
Look up what happened to the followers of Arius.
It is Night.
Jesus is crucified anew, this time on the cruel and unforgiving cross of feminism and political correctness.
upottbr
Posted: 2009/4/8 20:31  Updated: 2009/4/8 20:31
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2009/2/23
From: Arlington, Texas
Posts: 36
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Let me put on my Amazing Karnak turban for a moment…

This seminary will attract a total of eight like-minded students next year who will eventually go out and be priestesses in parishes in the Northeast with an ASA of 23.

Did I nail it? Where else but in TEC would such satanic blather be tolerated, let alone defended and celebrated?

James P.
RevDarrenS
Posted: 2009/4/8 20:45  Updated: 2009/4/8 20:45
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/9/24
From: Georgia, USA
Posts: 250
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Let me make a further prediction of my own... A degree earned from EDS will be as valid as if it were discovered in a Cracker Jack Box. Will the last person to leave the Episcopal church please close the door? I would ask you to turn out the light...but it appears that that light went out long ago.
daveball
Posted: 2009/4/8 22:05  Updated: 2009/4/8 22:05
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/18
From: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 3336
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
TEc has given up the idea of "formation" of priests and is now accepting only the already corrupt to pass through an inefficient factory before dubbing them "priest" or "priestess". The qualifications are no long a calling to serve the Lord and to minister in His name but rather a desire to spread the PC pap dejour while dressing up in fancy outfits.

The Judgement Day will not be kind to many of this ilk.
Cennydd
Posted: 2009/4/8 22:16  Updated: 2009/4/8 22:16
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 8133
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
As they say in Maine: "Aaaay-yup!"

Cennydd
Myrmidon
Posted: 2009/4/8 22:46  Updated: 2009/4/8 22:46
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2009/3/5
From: Somewhere in New England
Posts: 82
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
"That the Diocese of Massachusetts has a functioning transgendered priest complete with a sex change operation (he appeared at Lambeth 2008)" Is that Velerie Bailey Fischer or someone else?
Myrmidon
Posted: 2009/4/8 22:50  Updated: 2009/4/8 22:50
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2009/3/5
From: Somewhere in New England
Posts: 82
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
That should be Valerie Bailey Fischer above. Although now I find that Cameron Partridge is a female-to-male priest in the diocese of MA.
Climacus
Posted: 2009/4/9 1:05  Updated: 2009/4/9 1:05
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/2/19
From: Boston
Posts: 89
 Why is anyone shocked?
I don't see why anyone should be shocked at this.

The Anglican Church was created so King Henry VIII could divorce his wife (or wives), many of whom he subsequently killed. In other words, fornication and murder were the sine qua non of the Anglican Church!!! This is just a natural development, no more than a baby step from how it was in the beginning.

Better to join with the apostolic Church, e.g. the Eastern Orthodox Church, which has kept the faith unchanged for 2000 years!
Pebble
Posted: 2009/4/9 1:34  Updated: 2009/4/9 1:34
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/5/22
From: Clark County, Kingdom of Deseret
Posts: 200
 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
Bravo, Climacus, bravo!
FrankV
Posted: 2009/4/9 1:42  Updated: 2009/4/9 1:44
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/1/5
From: Colorado Springs, CO
Posts: 305
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Climacus:
That's a nasty little bit of twisted history you've propounded there. The relatively independent English church harks back to the earliest centuries of Christianity. It was originally oriented to the Jerusalem church and not Rome. At least 3 English Bishops attended the Council of Nicea called by Emperor Constantine.
Henry's escapades were just an adjunct of the European Reformation. The Anglican church was re-reformed long after Henry was gone ie., post Bloody Mary and the Puritans.
Get a grip on History. Beside that, the TEC can no longer really claim to be Anglican in theology. They are Unitarian Moloch worshipers and abortionists of the Baal leaning.
Cennydd
Posted: 2009/4/9 2:30  Updated: 2009/4/9 3:26
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 8133
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Climacus needs to enroll in a course on the history of Christianity in Britain. It is said that it begins with St Augustine being sent to Britain by Rome, but I'm sure he knows that.

Henry VIII could not tolerate any other ruler....including the Bishop of Rome (the Pope)....in England, and because of this, he exercised his right to toss out Rome's bishops and installed his own, with himself as Defender of the Faith and titular head of the Church via the Act of Supremacy.

Thus, the Church IN England became the Church OF England. And contrary to misguided assumption, Henry VIII did NOT found the Church of England; it was up and running LONG before he assumed the throne. He just kicked Rome out.

That's only one part of the story, but it's the beginning. His daughter Elizabeth I did the rest.

And my little history lesson only begins to scratch the surface.

And now, shall we get back to the story....the subject of this article?

Cennydd
yendor
Posted: 2009/4/9 6:45  Updated: 2009/4/9 10:40
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Joined: 2007/11/3
From:
Posts: 114
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Cennydd, I have much respect for your opinions and I am no historian, but I must disagree with you about St Augustine. The Celtic church (which owed no allegiance to Rome) was well established in England by the time Augustine arrived for Rome to make a successful takeover bid. There is the story that Joseph of Arimithea introduced Christianity to England shortly after Jesus' death - that is very likely a myth, but the early existence of the Celtic church is certainly not a myth. Henry VIII may have broken from Rome for his own purposes, but it seems to be often overlooked that the Papacy was restored under the reign of his eldest daughter, Mary. The English population under her reign could, if they so wished, have reverted to Roman Catholicism. However, after her reign and many martyrs later the English people were mostly quite happy to break from Rome finally and revert to (not commence) self-government.
larsil
Posted: 2009/4/9 9:54  Updated: 2009/4/9 9:54
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Joined: 2005/10/23
From: near Pittsburgh
Posts: 297
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
To beloved brothers Cennydd and Yendor,

Not only did Augustine find a fully established church in the British Isles when he arrived, but it took some effort to have them acknowledge Rome!

I also have read the legend that Joseph of Arimathaea came to England (Glastonbury Tor), in the same vein that Mary Magdalene and companions reached the shores of France; however, one other tale that is intriguing is that when Paul wrote the letter to Rome, he made no mention of Peter as the curch's leader (which Peter would have been by that time); ostensibly, Peter was in hiding, IN ENGLAND. Therefore, says the legend, the English church was founded by the Keeper of the Keys himself.

Historically, full of holes -- but an interesting story none the less.

As to the matter at hand -- what can I say? I'd rather have history full of holes than theology with nothing to put holes into. This is one more reason I'm glad I never attended EDS.

---L.
CityTroope
Posted: 2009/4/9 10:44  Updated: 2009/4/9 10:44
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/12/2
From: Rosemont, PA
Posts: 169
 Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done. Abortion is a blessing and our work is not done.
Believe her. They are just getting started.

Once they "win" the marriage issue, reducing the age of consent (Just because someone is only 8 does not mean they should not have sex.), euthanasia (If a person is tired of living they should have the right to terminate themselves.) and mercy killing (That is no way to live, they would be better off dead.) are next.

Yes, from her point of view abortion is a blessing. It is just not of God, but of the adversary.
Cennydd
Posted: 2009/4/9 13:18  Updated: 2009/4/9 13:18
Home away from home
Joined: 2005/10/30
From: Anglican Diocese of San Joaquin
Posts: 8133
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Iarsil, both you and yendor are correct....I must dig a little further into my Church History books. But the evidence is there for all to see, and the Church of England, I must admit, seriously needs to get their affairs in order and sort themselves out; it seems they've forgotten who and what they are!

My comments about the EDS president, however, remain unchanged, and unless she gets dumped, that school is headed straight down the drain....though who will miss it is questionable.

Regards

Cennydd
JPollard
Posted: 2009/4/9 17:33  Updated: 2009/4/9 17:33
Not too shy to talk
Joined: 2007/1/24
From: Montgomery, Alabama
Posts: 22
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Seems the Episcopal Divinity School is led by focused and committed HERETICS of the first magnitude. The good news is Bible believing and Bible preaching Anglican churches are growing. Thanks TEC!!
johncarl
Posted: 2009/4/9 19:34  Updated: 2009/4/9 19:34
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2008/4/18
From:
Posts: 119
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Why can't we just call this for what it is - EVIL among us - all of it - abortion, homosexuality, greed, etc. Satan is alive and well and feeding in all Christian denominations. Recognize it and call upon St. Michael the Archangel to fight it!! You cannot do it alone.
DavidJacks
Posted: 2009/4/9 19:37  Updated: 2009/4/9 19:37
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2005/4/23
From: Upper Toadtown, California
Posts: 108
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
I have not checked Virtue Online for quite a while. It seems TEC is truly amazing; it becomes more amazing each time I look. Where will it end?

Regards;
Sagamore
Posted: 2009/4/9 20:30  Updated: 2009/4/9 20:38
Just can't stay away
Joined: 2007/9/10
From:
Posts: 137
 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
Climacus, here's a little something, very fitting for Maundy Thursday, for you to ponder: tally up how many nations and peoples in the last five hundred years Anglicanism has brought the light of Christ to compared to Orthodoxy. You guys seem to have almost forgotten that evangelism is a primary duty of Christians. Orthodox Jews hardly show less interest in proselytizing than Orthodox Christians.

I might also add that godless Communism has never taken sway in a Protestant country, and for that matter are any of you...you know...actually *doing* anything about abortion? Or anything else for that matter? I'm pretty sure no one has ever accused you folks of being too pro-active. I mean, it's easy to not do wrong when you basically do nothing at all in terms of engaging the outer world. "Want of zeal" indeed!
RevDarrenS
Posted: 2009/4/9 22:04  Updated: 2009/4/9 22:06
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/9/24
From: Georgia, USA
Posts: 250
 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
Climacus- You only are dealing with 1/2 of the story. Let's not forget St. John Chrysostom and his help and aid in persecuting the Jews. The EOC has had it's dark times too.
bradhutt
Posted: 2009/4/9 23:09  Updated: 2009/4/9 23:09
Home away from home
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From: Washington D.C. Metro Area
Posts: 197
 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
I do know one thing-the episcopalians sure can pick em.
Leonard
Posted: 2009/4/10 0:52  Updated: 2009/4/10 0:52
Home away from home
Joined: 2004/11/2
From: Denver
Posts: 159
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
May the Lord destroy the works of this wicked witch.
RevDarrenS
Posted: 2009/4/10 1:55  Updated: 2009/4/10 1:55
Home away from home
Joined: 2007/9/24
From: Georgia, USA
Posts: 250
 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
Climacus- By the way... I am formerly Eastern Orthodox (OCA)... The Apostolic Church is not bound by denomination. The Holy Spirit is free to choose whom It wishes to choose, regardless of what they brand themselves. As Frank V noted... You need to research your history a little better before making comments like the ones you made.
The Orthodox Church went through some of the most drastic changes to the doctrine of the faith of any of the denominations. Some good...some questionable. I would advise looking into some course studies. Might I advise "Early Christian Doctrines" by JND Kelly?
The tone of your post came across as being somewhat elitist and unbecoming of a Christian brother (or sister). I hope this was not your intent. Salvation is not dependent upon what denomination you profess, but what you profess in your heart of your faith in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Savior. If anything...you should be supportive of those who have chosen to fight the hard fight against heresy. After all, Orthodox, Catholics, and Anglicans, as well as other denominations that share the same views regarding Christ are on the same team.
bcwright
Posted: 2009/4/10 2:43  Updated: 2009/4/10 2:47
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From:
Posts: 589
 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
Sagamore, if you're looking for a sinless Church you won't find one this side of Heaven. One can also recite a litany of the collective sins of the Anglican communion - the persecution of Catholics and dissenting Protestants, the prohibition on Jews living in England, etc. To our collective shame, NONE of the major Christian communions have fully lived up to Jesus' commandment that we should love one another.

Moreover, the Protestant world has hardly been immune to horrific doctrines: One need only look back on the history of Nazi Germany.

Although the worldwide Orthodox Church is much larger than the Anglican Communion, in the US it is relatively small - significantly smaller than the various Anglican groupings even if one only counts the TEC, and certainly much poorer since it is less well-established and many of its members are immigrants. As such its influence is necessarily dilute - though there certainly are relief and missionary efforts, and a number of Orthodox are in fact active in pro-life organizations.

We are all sinners in need of a Savior - so it ill becomes us to pick at each other's myriad faults, whether real or imagined.
fresnohye
Posted: 2009/4/10 16:00  Updated: 2009/4/10 16:00
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 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Ever notice how all those who favor abortion have already been born?

If Ragsdale's mother had aborted her, would that have been a blessing?

DPK
otispage2
Posted: 2009/4/10 19:20  Updated: 2009/4/10 19:20
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 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
It may be a proper assumption that instruction on “genital expression”, the “rights of orgasm” and even “anal sex” will be included in a revised curriculum.

Nothing surpises me regarding the homoerotic adventures in TEC. Spong and Robinson must be rejoicing.
Aneirin
Posted: 2009/4/10 20:54  Updated: 2009/4/10 20:54
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 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
This woman is an evil hireling who will train wolves in vestments to devour the flock.
Sagamore
Posted: 2009/4/11 3:47  Updated: 2009/4/13 11:00
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 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
bcwright wrote:

"Sagamore, if you're looking for a sinless Church you won't find one this side of Heaven. One can also recite a litany of the collective sins of the Anglican communion - the persecution of Catholics and dissenting Protestants, the prohibition on Jews living in England, etc. To our collective shame, NONE of the major Christian communions have fully lived up to Jesus' commandment that we should love one another."

Agreed, but at least Anglicans have never made any real attempt to paint it otherwise. We don't claim to be perfect, or the "One True Church".
Climacus
Posted: 2009/4/11 18:23  Updated: 2009/4/11 18:23
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 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Didn't mean to sound elitist. Just incredulous that anyone can express shock at anything the Anglican church does, given its history. When I made my remarks, I was referring specifically to the CoE's existence as a separate canonical entity under Henry VIII, which, I still insist, was born for the convenience of fornication and murder, though, undoubtedly, other people were glad to have a church separate from Rome. Insofar as England sided with the Pope, no church in England has been part of the canonical Apostolic Church since the great schism in 1053, and so I must reject the assumption that apostolicity is reducible to historical pedigree.

In any case, without wanting to anger anyone here, with whom I'm sure I would be very glad to enjoy a beer, I don't see Anglican evangelism as a good thing because, quite frankly, the Christ and Gospel of Anglicanism is simply not that of the Apostolic Church. That is assuming there is such a thing as an Anglican gospel, which I'm sure differs greater depending on whether the missionary is Anglo-Catholic, Arminian, Calvinist, Liberal, or Charismatic. Nor, of course, do we Orthodox subscribe to the branch-theory of the Church, or to the idea that the Church is an ethereal invisible body, or to the idea that one can be united to Christ without also being united to his Body. And while the Orthodox Church is filled with errant sinners at all levels, and took its time developing sound doctrine over the centuries, it has never canonized error. The CoE, on the other hand, seems only capable of defending and requiring their priests and seminarians to believe the most un-Apostolic and abominable things, such as the Calvinism of the 39 Articles, or, as is evident, once again, from their selection of the seminary president. Thus, I plead with you gentleman, to return to the Church confessed in the Creeds, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, be united to Christ in His Body, and leave this tattered man-made religion behind you.
bcwright
Posted: 2009/4/12 17:22  Updated: 2009/4/12 17:24
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 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
Anglicanism is always the first out on every spiritual battlefield. Yes, maybe we have, as a whole, been wrong sometimes, [...] but we've never, ever shied away from the fight!

Sagamore,

I'm afraid that there isn't a single Christian communion that hasn't, in some times and places, been guilty of lukewarmness. The 5th Century English Church (which produced St. Patrick), for example, as well as the Anglican Church of the 18th Century, were both accused of such by their contemporaries both at home and abroad. Their words, not mine. There are many other examples throughout Christendom.

As for Newman and the Tractarians, I was stunned when I read in Newman's The Development of Christian Doctrine that in his opinion Eastern Orthodox thought had not experienced any development since the Great Schism. It was then that I realized to what extent the great man had been isolated from the writings of the East, for though he knew Latin and Greek he did not know Russian or any of the other Slavic languages in which much of the later Eastern Orthodox thought had been written; nor were translations into those Western languages that would have been accessible to him such as English, French, or German common in his day: Those did not start to appear until around the beginning of the 20th Century and especially after the Russian Diaspora following the Revolution.

I would be most cautious about quoting the Tractarians' opinions of the Orthodox, because it is clear from their own writings that their knowledge was second- or third-hand at best - not to diminish their scholarship, but in that era the Eastern writings would simply not have been available to them. They are much more reliable when they are discussing Anglicanism, Catholicism, the Bible, or the early Fathers, with all of which they had more direct knowledge.
RevDarrenS
Posted: 2009/4/12 18:24  Updated: 2009/4/12 18:24
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From: Georgia, USA
Posts: 250
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
You truly have no idea do you? Hmmmm...Last I checked (last week...) the Orthodox Church STILL recognizes the Apostolic Succession of Anglican Holy Orders. The Orthodox Church is NOT the only Apostolic Church. It is an error to think that it is.
Christ came specifically to abolish that type of criterion and thinking as regards man-made institutions. You need to read your Kalistos Ware books a little better. The view of the Orthodox Church differs from your interpretation regarding salvation. I took your posts to an Orthodox priest friend of mine and had him go through them. My friend...he also concurs that you are in error regarding many of your ideas. Salvation is by grace. It is not the purvey of "belonging" to one denomination or another. Biblically... there is much that points out the error in your reasoning. We don't rely upon being so-and-so's disciple or follower to be a better or truer Christian than someone else! Paul said as much! We are Christ's and by virtue of our faith in Him... We are saved. To think that particular denominational affiliation or adherence to prescribed religious form and ritual makes one single difference to God at the Great White Throne of Judgement would be making the same mistake that the Pharisees made. The judgement will be one of two for all. "Come in Good and Faithful Servant"...or "Depart from Me for I never knew you." It shall not be, "Were you an Episcpalian or an Orthodox?"

PS- Having never "canonized" error and having never "practiced" error are two different things in relation to the Orthodox Church. Let me ask you...Are there any Anglicans in your view of Heaven? What of Baptists, Catholics, or otherwise? To say no would be judging. Last I checked... that's not for us to do. There will be no distinction in Heaven. Only what we have believed in our hearts and what the fruits of that belief has borne out in our lives.
bcwright
Posted: 2009/4/12 19:12  Updated: 2009/4/12 19:12
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 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Last I checked (last week...) the Orthodox Church STILL recognizes the Apostolic Succession of Anglican Holy Orders.

RevDarrenS - As far as I know the Orthodox Church as a whole have never come to any kind of general understanding on this topic. Some very significant figures in the Orthodox Church have recognized the Apostolic nature of Anglican Holy Orders, others have not. As you are no doubt aware, such things do not happen quickly in the Orthodox Church - however unlike the Catholic Church and Apostolicae Curae, the validity of Anglican Orders has never been definitively ruled out by the Orthodox.

I would say however that the Orthodox Church sees herself as the direct descendant of the Apostolic Church, and as the visible Body of Christ on Earth - not that she excludes other believers from Christ's Kingdom (for that is not hers to do), but rather views them as separated brethren. This becomes very clear when you look at her policy regarding baptism: If someone has already been baptized in the name of the Trinity, it is normally not repeated when one is accepted into the Orthodox Church.
RevDarrenS
Posted: 2009/4/12 21:11  Updated: 2009/4/12 21:11
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From: Georgia, USA
Posts: 250
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
I concur. Perhaps if we Anglicans,as well as others, can separate ourselves from folks such as Ms. Ragsdale and other heretics... there will be movement towards rectifying the current state of affairs between the denominations.

It looks as if this should become a priority given the increasing hostility towards Christians and Christianity that is becoming prevalent in today's society.
Sagamore
Posted: 2009/4/12 23:58  Updated: 2009/4/12 23:58
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Posts: 137
 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
"I would be most cautious about quoting the Tractarians' opinions of the Orthodox, because it is clear from their own writings that their knowledge was second- or third-hand at best - not to diminish their scholarship, but in that era the Eastern writings would simply not have been available to them. They are much more reliable when they are discussing Anglicanism, Catholicism, the Bible, or the early Fathers, with all of which they had more direct knowledge."

I wasn't really quoting them for their opinion on Orthodoxy, but their opinion on Anglicanism, namely that we don't understand our tradition, administered as it is by human beings, to be beyond error. And every Christian church, administered as they are by fallible human beings, are susceptible to error creeping in, be it in terms of abstract doctrine or manner of operation. Triumphalism does little but impede any church from owning up to it's past wrongdoings and making an effort to rectify them, or directly dealing with new challenges. Anglicanism, generally speaking, has never been prone to taking the lazy way out and avoiding a lively confrontation of issues. Naturally, one or both sides of these confrontations is going to be wrong, and there's also going to be visible conflict, but that doesn't somehow make Anglicanism more inherently prone to error than those churches who use their supposed infallibility to avoid self-examination entirely.

Not to defend Newman, either, but the Orthodox themselves are quite fond of perpetuating the idea that their church is the very same church of the early Fathers, pristinely unchanged and unaltered. I'll say too, that I've heard any number of absolutely ridiculous things from Orthodox sources, ranging all the way from not keeping formal fasts puts one's eternal soul in jeopardy to claims that anyone who cannot understand Greek cannot be a "real" Christian. Of course, most Orthodox will say that these things don't represent 'true' Orthodoxy, but who are they to say it doesn't? I would retort that most Anglicans would just as well-and quite rightfully-say that this or that exteme position among themselves doesn't represent classical Anglicanism either. Orthodoxy has the Russian 'Old Religionists', R.O.C.O.R., Greek Old Calendarists, a very nasty little recent spat and break of communion between Constantinople and Moscow, the situation of the O.C.A., Western Rite members who get treated like second class citizens, and any number of other disagreements and divisions, but we Anglicans are typified as being splintered and confused? Sorry, but that's more than just a little hypocritical.
Sagamore
Posted: 2009/4/13 1:18  Updated: 2009/4/13 1:20
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 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
"Didn't mean to sound elitist. Just incredulous that anyone can express shock at anything the Anglican church does, given its history. When I made my remarks, I was referring specifically to the CoE's existence as a separate canonical entity under Henry VIII, which, I still insist, was born for the convenience of fornication and murder, though, undoubtedly, other people were glad to have a church separate from Rome. Insofar as England sided with the Pope, no church in England has been part of the canonical Apostolic Church since the great schism in 1053, and so I must reject the assumption that apostolicity is reducible to historical pedigree."

Yes, except this is all bad history. The CoE, for one thing, did not become separated under Henry VIII. Henry was excommunicated, not the CoE. And why separation from the Pope would trouble you as an Orthodox person is a bit hard to understand. While no one argues Henry was not despicable, do you likewise suppose that the need for a royal heir was some small thing, that a war of succession does not bring murder and untold evil to a nation, or that the Pope's position was all about morality and virtue and had nothing to do with being under the Emperor's thumb? I'd further add how funny it is that only non-Anglicans ever seem to think of Henry as an important figure in Anglicanism. We certainly don't consider him much. Besides, was Michael Cerularius really some paragon of virtue to warrant throwing stones?

Also, by the way, England most expressly did not side with Rome after the schism, but rather was compelled under the Normans shortly thereafter to submit. The relationship of the last Saxon Archbishop of Canterbury to the Pope was, well, not good to say the very least. He was deposed by William and the English church was brought in line with Rome.


"In any case, without wanting to anger anyone here, with whom I'm sure I would be very glad to enjoy a beer, I don't see Anglican evangelism as a good thing because, quite frankly, the Christ and Gospel of Anglicanism is simply not that of the Apostolic Church. That is assuming there is such a thing as an Anglican gospel, which I'm sure differs greater depending on whether the missionary is Anglo-Catholic, Arminian, Calvinist, Liberal, or Charismatic."

Don't pretend there exists any less different schools of thought among Orthodoxy than in historical Anglicanism.


"Nor, of course, do we Orthodox subscribe to the branch-theory of the Church, or to the idea that the Church is an ethereal invisible body, or to the idea that one can be united to Christ without also being united to his Body."

Which is essentially to say only the Orthdox will see Heaven. Yes, we definitely disagree on that count!


"And while the Orthodox Church is filled with errant sinners at all levels, and took its time developing sound doctrine over the centuries, it has never canonized error. The CoE, on the other hand, seems only capable of defending and requiring their priests and seminarians to believe the most un-Apostolic and abominable things, such as the Calvinism of the 39 Articles"

And what of Cyril Lucaris? Ley me quote from an Orthodox apology in regard to him, "Just as today one must see the Orthodox world in its greater historical context, so in Patriarch Kyrillos’ day, too, Orthodoxy existed in a world of political reality that must be carefully studied, in order to see what implications rise above his specific witness and faithfully address Orthodoxy at a general level. To this end, let me just say, as a general observation, that with the fall of Constantinople the Orthodox East fell under Latin domination and the Turkish Yoke. Its survival threatened, its spiritual and intellectual primacy relinquished to the West, Orthodoxy in the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries took on an historical character that cannot be applied universally to the Church’s experience and ethos, and especially, again, without careful examination and precision."

These same type of things regarding politics and zeitgeist could equally and even more so be said of England and Anglicanism at the time; why does this sort of subtle argument not equally apply when the case is ours?


"Thus, I plead with you gentleman, to return to the Church confessed in the Creeds, the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, be united to Christ in His Body, and leave this tattered man-made religion behind you."

OK, but what strictly defines "the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church" you speak of? Being in communion with the Ecumenical Patriarch? Just being 'Eastern' in general? Either of these definitions is pretty sticky, unless of course you care to go with the latter and say, as I've seen many Orthodox say, that Western Christianity basically has no rightful place in the world.

Let me say that I would gladly have a beer with you, Climacus. I'm honestly not the least bit heated about this discusssion, but if you want to talk smack to Anglicans, then this Anglican will smack talk right back.
bcwright
Posted: 2009/4/13 2:20  Updated: 2009/4/13 3:32
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 Re: Why is anyone shocked?
Of course, most Orthodox will say that these things don't represent 'true' Orthodoxy, but who are they to say it doesn't?

Sagamore,

If the words of St. John Chrysostom (one of the most revered saints in Church history) in his famous Easter Homily aren't enough to dispel this warped notion of Orthodoxy, I don't know what would be:

"Let all pious men and all lovers of God rejoice in the splendor of this feast; let the wise servants blissfully enter into the joy of their Lord; let those who have borne the burden of Lent now receive their pay, and those who have toiled since the first hour, let them now receive their due reward; let any who came after the third hour be grateful to join in the feast, and those who may have come after the sixth, let them not be afraid of being too late; for the Lord is gracious and He receives the last even as the first. He gives rest to him who comes on the eleventh hour as well as to him who has toiled since the first: yes, He has pity on the last and He serves the first; He rewards the one and praises the effort.

"Come you all: enter into the joy of your Lord. You the first and you the last, receive alike your reward; you rich and you poor, dance together; you sober and you weaklings, celebrate the day; you who have kept the fast and you who have not, rejoice today. The table is richly loaded: enjoy its royal banquet. The calf is a fatted one: let no one go away hungry. All of you enjoy the banquet of faith; all of you receive the riches of his goodness. Let no one grieve over his poverty, for the universal kingdom has been revealed; let no one weep over his sins, for pardon has shone from the grave; let no one fear death, for the death of our Saviour has set us free: He has destroyed it by enduring it, He has despoiled Hades by going down into its kingdom, He has angered it by allowing it to taste of his flesh."

Moreover, the Orthodox understanding of fasting is not that it brings any greater merit to the believer - far from it - but rather that it is a physical reminder of repentance and of joining oneself to the sacrifice of Christ. A teachable moment for the soul, as it were.

Although Greek naturally has a very high standing in the Orthodox world (especially as the entire New Testament and most of the early Fathers are preserved primarily in Greek), the Orthodox tradition has long favored having the Scriptures and the Liturgy available in the local vernacular. Look up Cyril and Methodius, or the history of the Mission to the Aleuts in Alaska if you want more information.

Naturally there has been change and development in the Orthodox Church as there has been everywhere else - the claim is not (or at least, should not be) that the Orthodox Church is a pristine representation of the early Church, but rather that it represents its most natural maturation in the modern world. Nor is it that Orthodoxy is without sin, for we are all in need of a Savior.

The Orthodox do not see their tradition as being "beyond error" but rather that over time it is self-correcting through the guidance of the Holy Spirit - cf "Robber Councils" and the like, for example.

I am not going to apologize for any Orthodox who were not properly catechized, but really, one can come up with such ridiculous statements from adherents of any religion or denomination that do not fairly represent the teachings of their faith tradition.

You are certainly correct that there have been numerous disagreements amongst the various Orthodox groups - but in practice their relations with each other have usually been quite cordial in spite of the disagreements. In many areas, the "Sunday of Orthodoxy" (the first Sunday of Great Lent) includes service(s) that include all of the Orthodox in the area, and in my experience these have been times of good fellowship with Orthodox from various traditions.

I was not attacking Anglicans as "splintered and confused" - he doth protest too much, methinks - but rather I was responding to what I perceived as misconceptions about Orthodoxy. If I came across as attacking either Anglicanism generally or you personally, then I must apologize, for such was not my intention.
bcwright
Posted: 2009/4/13 5:41  Updated: 2009/4/13 13:26
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 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Which is essentially to say only the Orthodox will see Heaven. Yes, we definitely disagree on that count!

I do not think that Climacus was trying to imply what you think he was. Rather, Orthodoxy believes that Christian baptism unites the believer with the Church, which is the Bride of Christ - whose fullness is visible in the Orthodox Church. Non-Orthodox Trinitarian Christians are viewed as being in a state of impaired communion, not as being unsaved. Moreover they believe that baptism alone will not get you into Heaven, but that a life of faith and repentance is also necessary.

As for non-Trinitarian Christians, the Orthodox Church does not believe that their baptism is necessarily effective in establishing their membership in the Church. In their case, as in the case of non-Christians, the Orthodox Church will baptize them in the Threefold Name when receiving them into the Church. As for what would happen to non-Trinitarian Christians and non-Christians upon their death, she does not claim certainty but rather pleads God's mercy.

As a practical matter this is not all that different from Catholic or mainstream Protestant teaching (most of whom will also baptize non-Trinitarians who are being received into their denomination), the main difference being that the Catholics and Orthodox reject the common Protestant notion of an "invisible Church" - instead believing that we are all baptized into ONE visible Church, but that some Christians may have an impaired communion with her.

FWIW.
Sagamore
Posted: 2009/4/15 16:42  Updated: 2009/4/15 16:42
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 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
bcwright, you needn't apologize for Orthodoxy to me. Trust me, I have no problem with Orthodoxy or anything they do...excepting when some of them do the Holier-Than-Thou act. Anglicanism has nothing-NOTHING-to be ashamed of, because we are always the first to take the bull by the horns, so full and real self-correction is assured. These current controversies far from represent any inherent weakness of Anglicanism, but rather it's strength. By getting all this stuff right out in the open and dealt with, it is then...well... dealt with-once and for all. I can assure you that every person that will be sitting in the pew of a parish of the new province will have a very definite, certain, and orthodox understanding of human sexuality. People can say that churches like the RCC, etc, are bastions of faith and always "tow the line", but what they apparently fail to understand or admit is that their pews are filled with people who do NOT hold to the their own church's understanding of things. They just keep their mouths shut and sit there and then go on Monday to protest for gay marriage in their state, or tell their kids things like, well, the priests mean well, but they're old and out of touch. By contrast, gay 'inclusion' is never, EVER going to be an issue in the ACNA. That matter is done and over with for good, with the diseased branch (TEC) cut away to wither and die. Job done! 100% self-corrected and let's get on with the show...
larsil
Posted: 2009/4/16 16:43  Updated: 2009/4/16 16:43
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Joined: 2005/10/23
From: near Pittsburgh
Posts: 297
 Re: Gay, Pro-Abortion Episcopal Seminary Prexy Symbolizes...
Just gotta say, this exchange was far more interesting to me than the original story was!

I have been yearning for a "rapprochement" between the Anglicans and the Eastern Orthodox (especially the Russian Orthodox) ever since I became a member of the Anglican Communion. May that day happen, in God's time.

Climacus, named for the Saint of the Ladder, thank you for your presence with us, and I hope we can learn from each other. I can see there is much I could learn from you.

This discussion could have gone several directions. I am impressed with the way that it was handled with respect for each other. Well done, brothers!

---L.
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